Talk:Main Page:Archive7
Ideas * i was thinking a good way to link to external howtos would be to use a template similar to this... template:external :*Some problems with this might be that people will just copy the page, regardless of copyright license ;*I think it can be worded better to solve that.... maybe :ZyMOS 05:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC) Categories and Portals Ok, we need a list of acceptable portals. Then what is important in a portal is the presentation: using boxes, coors; making important guides and howtos more bold and more visible, etc... I still don't know about categories. Wat can we use them for? Maybe we should first have portals and then we can put portals into categories. moa3333 10:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC) :ok. sounds good. Id like to see what you idea of a portal, before i make any... Some topics for portals might be *unix customization *linux distributions *woodworking *home repair *computer repair : maybe you could make an example of one of these ideas so i could see what you are thinking ZyMOS 11:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC) I made How WikiHowTo works, allot easier for people to understand. check it out Guide to getting started on WikiHowTo ZyMOS 12:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC) I don't have time to contribute much right now until the summer at least; portals should have links to objects in the top and eventually to some guides and howtos in the bottom of the page (or left/right). I think better portals are: * Xnix customization (portal) (GNU/binutils, linux, hurd, bsd, solaris, hp-ux, etc) * Software distributions (portal) (including GNU/linux, GNU/bsd, solaris, windows, amiga, etc) * woodworking (portal) * home repair (portal) * Desktop computer repair (portal) (all PC desktop computers but not portables or super-computers or Apple) * Portable computer repair (portal) (only portables) * etc... moa3333 23:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC) Greetz From both a Wikipedian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Estel and (more relevantly) a wikiHowian http://wiki.ehow.com/User:Estel. Interesting project, even if I now must view it with some abstract bias and rivalry :) I saw this though: : This site has nice organization and howto formating rules, but it does not cross link, or link to definitions. We want WikiHowTo to be fully integrated into the other wiki projects. All keywords should be linked to wikipedia, and all steps that are not intuitive should be linked to a smaller howto (http://en.howto.wikicities.com/wiki/Wikihowto/similar_sites) :: Im wondering was the fact that the object like to wikipedia not obvious, should we change the format to Object: shell(wikipedia) ::or something like that ZyMOS 05:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC) And am basically wondering what community members in this community now view of wikiHow - what it's shortcomings are, and what weaknesses it may inheritly have. I must admit, I would not like to see "The risk of having many wiki-style howto sites is that all may be watered down and would not contain the amount if it were whole" becoming a reality, as that would be good for none. But as I see it, the only difference between wikiHowto's current implementation is the license Estel 23:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC) : I agree we are far from being integrated with wikipedia, and others. our plan is to have all keywords linked in articles, like the in wikipedia. The only difference is instead of a like directly wikipedia, the keywords link to objects. Then the objects are linking to wikipedia. : objects are essentially the main pages in wikihowto, when you search it takes you to the object and in the future so will the categories... :Here is a more idea howto Howto allow nonsuper users to shutdown computer in unix, with proper linking. I realize that not many of the pages are liked properly.... :please let me know what you think ZyMOS 04:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC) I think WikiHowTo and wikiHow can have 3 different destiny: * wikiHow will be able to change completely and WikiHowTo will not have contributors; i don't think this will happened because of two reasons: if wikiHwow will change a lot now it will loose 90% of its contributors, who are used with a certain style of articles. However, if we don't get contributors then we will not be able to grow up, but i am confident there will be people contributing. * WikiHowTo will become e wikimedia project and in 2 years will have one million pages, etc, etc... then it will remain only WikiHowTo; well, i don' think, because we have to have first more contributors before becoming a wikimedia project. And it will be difficult to have more contributors than wikiHow in the next year if people think wikiHow is good enaught; unless people complain about wikiHow license or community, i think this is not very possible. * The most possible to me is to have wikiHow continuing with a few of its contributors, and growing up maybe, and at the same time WikiHowTo wil grow up a little. In time i think we could have two projects, and we cannot avoid inter-linking. At least WikiHowTo will not hesitate to link to the howtos from wikiHow. wikiHow may hesitate to do that or not, depending on how they want to grow up. WikiHowTo is intended to make a lot of external links, and is not intended to provide all the help in-situm. finally, i hope WikiHowTo will be more easy to use because of the Object system and integration with Wikipedia. This will not mean there will be less interest in wikiHow. Since WikiHowTo will link to wikiHow, we do not want people to recreate pages that are on wikiHow, at least at first while the project is not as big as wikiHow. This means we will not compete on articles. Or at last i hope so, because there is no need to compete on that. Instead i think the best way to deal with the two projects is to have wikiHow creating high quality articles that "explain" things, while WikiHowTo will have better organization, integration with Wikipedia, linking to other pages and will not hesitate to link to high quality pages on wikiHow. We should crate a strict policy so that people do NOT REPLICATE articles on wikiHow unless they create an article that is completely different. I know it is not good to have two projects, but since there is a problem of license, i think WikiHowTo will not be hurt by wikiHow, so wikiHow could continue to exist. We will also eventually link to pages from About.com or other, so we see wikiHow as a resource we can link to, not as a competitor (at least as much as wikiHow will not change completely and implement objects and Wikipedia integration) moa3333 05:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC) : I have much the same vision for the future, but with a slight difference. I hope that in the future all wiki-style howto sights will see the benefit of merging together, and putting together all there ideas in a wiki fashion. Also in the ideal world in my head wikihowto becomes the focal point of all howto questions. Gentoo and debian linux will put there howto on wikihowto, and so will allot of websites that have individual howto that are often had to find.... well thats ideal in my world, therefore we would not have many link to outside howtos. The problem with linking to outside howtos is that if their site shuts down, that howto is lost forever, but if we make a howto on wikihowto it will always be there.... Let me know what you think....ZyMOS 05:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC) thanks again for you comments, we need all the help and advice we can get.... :: That's a really interesting approach the the problem of conjoining related how-tos to one place. I'm not sure if its the most effective, but it's certainly original. I'm just not sure that it offers anything that cannot be offered by a more ordered category structure.- Estel 14:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC) ::: Back. Regarding outside howto sites... that is true. But it's always impossible to determine whether they will or not. If I had linked to any of the previous iterations of this site, I'd have a hard time finding the relevant article now ^^. Ehow has existed for many years now. I know that Gentoo's wiki is public domain, so everyone's welcome to a slice of their pie and copy it vertebration. - Estel 08:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC) :::Imagen you are reading a howto and you run into a word you don't know, it will quickly take you to wikipedia for a definition, or u see a word, 'X', and think you may want to learn more of what 'X' can do, so u click it. and it lists all the available howtos and guides related to it... there is no other wiki-style howto site that does this. Also i don't think it will be easy to get all the sites to merge, but i am convinced it would be for the best. So far we have merged 3 howto startups, and once we get the site going i think wikibooks, howto bookshelf will join. thanks again ZyMOS 17:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC) ::::basically, even if you just come for the first time, it is more easy to find a solution when you know about what it is. I mean, in real life, you don't ask "I want to know an information about administration, it is about sport that is called formula1 and there are manufactured objects called cars and i have to know an information related to who drives them in such a context, can you help?". With categories you must browse: -> information -> organizational -> ... -> formula1 -> cars -> Who is the driver? ; while here you just go to formula1 page and that's it. It is a more direct approach that is closer to how people really think in real life, when they have other problems in mind, simply: "Related to formula1, how to know who is driving the cars?" moa3333 21:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC) :::::Yes, but people who are looking for something that specific will almost undoubtedly search for it anyway. Whereas here they may end up and the object page, wikiHow should return relevant pages with that word in them. Of course, neither is foolproof - here it is necessary for that object page to be manually created before it can be searched for. On wikiHow, the article will need to use that word, and not a synonym. We aren't using the default wikimedia search engine, and we're beginning to integrate the Google API into our results in order to overcome search limitations - but one of the main strengths of wikiHow is its unified look, style and feel. It is also much easier for new editors to use, because Mediawiki has been so heavily modified. The guided editor and the varying style should attract people to edit who may be intimidated by monobook's rather sterile environment (even if I do prefer it). Speaking of which, does wikiHowto aim for a specific audience, or guides on a particular field? - Estel 08:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::On one hand you are right. They will search the first time. But often people want to find it again the next month. If they remember a little, they can find it in two mouse clicks with objects. Actually you must put it manually, and this is what is most important: you will put it on the right place on the page in order to find it easily the next time. Of course, this requires more edits, but that's ok. moa3333 08:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::We like to have standard mediawiki that everyone is used to, like wikipedia. Also we do not think a particular style should be imposed for content pages or for objects. We do have a few guidelines and styles, but at least if the page looks nice than it is accepted. Hoverer in the future, we ould impose a style, but for now we don't even know what is the best style, so i think we will let everyone try its own style until a unique style emerges, and maybe there will never be only one style, maybe there will be a couple of styles for deferent pages. moa3333 08:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::It aims for guides on all subjects, but more than all i is good as a tool for hackers, "smart people" and even lost professionals. Not only computer hackers, also those who want to solve difficult problems in chemistry or mathematics. Smart professionals could be either teachers and students, or in the future maybe even real professionals could use it. On on side it will help particulars to solve every day problems (thus it will replace a professional assistance). In this regard it will replace hot lines but also the need to call a layer and explain him 30 minutes the problem when you can with wikihowto learn about ti and explain it in 2 minutes to the layer. It will save a lot of money. More han particulars, it will help professionals maybe. Like people who want a hint on a ubject. This does not mean they will find all they want here, but they might be guided. All that can be "hacked" in a word but only practical things. We want i to be practical, to save time to people. To speed up the learning and to help the work going on and not loosing time on stupid little things. moa3333 08:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::It replaces Do It Yourself, Search It Yourself, etc... with Do It Together and Search It Together... moa3333 08:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC) ::::About integrating other howtos here: yes, if they are simple and GFDLed. If they are composed of multiple pages, like a book, then i think it is good to link to them too, and as a howto create only a shorter or longer summary on a single page. So a few howtos may be integrated here from wikibooks, but not the ones that are entire books i think. If they are creative commons we just link to them until someone creates them again here (if ever necessary since the creative commons version can be freely modified - is it worth recreating them only for compatibility? it depends and is very arguable even not to recreate). moa3333 21:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC) Concerning weather to link to wikiHow or to put everything in a standard Wiki fashion, my opinion is closer to ZyMOS's vision. I think that we may have links to many sources, but eventually we will have to write everything in the Wiki in our words. Just like Wikipedia wouldn't be so much useful if it only contained the links, the WikiHowTo wouldn't be so precise and check-able (I see that in the future we WILL have to add some marks to mark stable, or working know-how) if it only contained many links. Links are okay for reference for later rewriting and refinishing the exact procedures things ourselves. Concerning the wikiHow's "unified look, style and feel". I personally feel much more confident to edit something that looks and feels like Wikipedia, than something else. Because in other Wikis there are cases when there are different editing and markup rules, and I don't feel so confident, just because the interface looks different. I don't know how it will be in the future, but if Google contributed to wikiHow, making it as easy to edit as http://www.writely.com , that might change things, and make the things. I have heard that Google tried to buy the Wikipedia, but this request was rejected or something. On the other hand, Google says that it doesn't want to do Evil, so it is probable that Google will try not to destroy other things, but to somehow integrate everything, not destroying the heart of the project. Inyuki 08:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC) :I only use the modified "Guided" editor when I'm trying to remember the order of various sections. Beyond that, I use the advanced editor, which is much more wikipedia-esque. Additionally, I'm not too keen on wikiHow's use of Javascript. But I do still believe that wikiHow is much more user friendly for first-time visitors that the standard monobook style - 195.137.78.127 21:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC) WikiHowTo name domain name problem The name of the site is important in promotion. Recently it is the shorter http://en.howto.wikia.com , and many agree with the name "WikiHowTo". However, the http://www.wikihowto.org is taken by someone in UK. What do you think about the site's name in the future? *One Suggestion: :When the project was only started, we were thinking about the names, and there was one name, which looked not bad, so I have registered it just in case. :It's http://www.wikitech.org (tech is for "technology" (techne (τεχνη) "craft" and logia (λογια) "saying."), and it also has the meaning of "a school teaching mechanical and industrial arts and the applied sciences" (www.onelook.com definition)) :At that Wikia said that as far as it does not belong to Wikia, they cannot put a Wiki under that domain ( some of the Wikies, like http://uncyclopedia.org or http://memory-alpha.org are actually Wikicities with domain names ). :So after that I have donated the domain name http://www.wikitech.org for Wikia with Jimmy Wales behind. :I don't know what they are thinking to do with this domain name, so, if there would be any agreement, it could be another possibility. Advantages: * it's short * it's international * the word "wikitech" quite popular on the Internet Disadvantages: * maybe in the English-speaking world people understand technology in a too wide sense to sense the real (primary) meaning of the word "technology", or to understand what the project is about. * the primary meaning of the word "tech" perhaps does not include the creation of social structures, that are necessary part of production nowadays. Mayeb wht.org or wikiguides.org ?? moa3333 19:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC) : wht.org would be good for it's shortness (the shorter the, the easier to remember), but not understandable internationally, and it seems that it's already registered : wikiguides.org would refer only to guides, so meaning might be a little bit too narrow, and it is not short name. (And I think that it should be not only the guides, but the quite precise procedural knowledge, just like programs for computers are written. Only that these will be the programs for people to execute.) : -Inyuki - Inyuki 133.9.4.11 21:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC) :: wikihowto.org is owned but its an alias to tellmehow.com and its not wiki at all, this makes be believe that they are not too attached to it, and may sell it. ether way, i dont think we need to worry about it now. We need to make it worth coming to, before we make a formal and seperate site ZyMOS 05:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Well, I agree. But still, before abandoning the subject, I would like to leave the the note, that perhaps all the possibilities could later be objectively reconsidered according to main criteria like: * Meaning * International comprehendability * Shortness * Availability * Confusability with other site names * Connotations * ... Maybe you could suggest more important factors. If you have thoughs of other important factors, maybe let's list them for later reference, when the project will be started. So, that would be the end of the topic for now. Inyuki 06:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Popularity WikiHowTo is now the sixth result for "wikihowto" on google. It used to be over 40th two weeks ago. I did a couple of those mass-free-submission things ZyMOS 03:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)